Decided to take the day off work yesterday - sorry to all awaiting mags sending - on to that now. But with over a week of snow forecast and nasty conditions Tues AM I decided to stay home and fix my trike instead so as to be able to safely get in over the next few days. Technical details here (on the Russian trikes forum):

[www.velovision.co.uk]

Anyway, once fixed it was fantastic commuting by trike :-) Even if it was snowing a blizzard as I got to work...

No, no, no!! you want of these, do your cycling for you!!!
[www.youtube.com]

Yep: good weather for trikes: I am happy to be riding my Kett in this weather: it can be done on 2 wheels, but 3 is *much* more relaxing :-)

(Having said that the -10C here in Germany has shown where there was water in my brake cables !! Tip: leave your trike in the cold overnight and check the mechanics in the morning. If you store it in the warm (>0C) then you may find that as you trip progresses your brakes slowly fade !!)

Or use all hydraulic brakes :-)

Actually I had the same problem on Monday - the rear (cable) disk brake on my bike froze up solid. Luckily I have Magura rim brakes on the front.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2010 11:46AM by peter.

> Or use all hydraulic brakes :-)

If I was spec'ing a new bike then I would. But to upgrade my Kett from the bottom-end Avids would cost a) money, b) time: I have not used hydraulics before so would have to learn about them (types, draining, fitting, maintaining), and figure how to fit them on a Kett. And I guess I should occasionally clean/lube the cables anyway !!

I got stuck in the snow on my trice today ... I was being a very silly boy though :-)

you really need one of these!
[www.youtube.com]

zoxed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Or use all hydraulic brakes :-)
>
> If I was spec'ing a new bike then I would. But to
> upgrade my Kett from the bottom-end Avids would
> cost a) money, b) time: I have not used hydraulics
> before so would have to learn about them (types,
> draining, fitting, maintaining), and figure how to
> fit them on a Kett. And I guess I should
> occasionally clean/lube the cables anyway !!


I upgraded my Kett' from Avid BB5s to BB7s. Easy to do as the mounts are the same so you swap the callipers only. They work better with less force needed to for a given braking force and are simple to adjust and keep adjusted. I would think twice before fitting hydraulics on any bike that is used near undergrowth. A pulled cable is repairable at the side of the track, a pulled hose isn't.

Greetings fellow Kett/VV'er !!

> I upgraded my Kett' from Avid BB5s to BB7s. Easy to do as the mounts are the same so you swap the callipers only. They work better with less force needed to for a given braking force and are simple to adjust and keep adjusted.

Interesting: these BB5s are my first disc brakes so I have nothing to compare them to, but they do seem very hard to adjust to get them to grip. My latest adjustments make them powerful, but they judder a lot under load. And they squeal like crazy as soon as they are damp :-(
Are the BB7s better ?

> A pulled cable is repairable at the side of the track...

Yes: that another reason I am not sure about trying hydraulics.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2010 12:15PM by zoxed.

n-ick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> you really need one of these!
>
Yep, that would have helped!

zoxed.

The BB5s are cheap and not so cheerful.

The 7s squeal in the wet, but not as badly as the 5s, and rarely squeal when dry. To be honest the BB5s are in need of constant adjustment and one pair of pads lasted under 800 miles, strangely the other side were still good at 1200 miles when I replaced them for the 7s. Since fitting the 7s I've done 1000 miles or so and have had to adjust the brakes once. It was practically every ride for the 5s, sometimes twice during a ride. And you'll know how fiddly they are to get right, the sevens are simplicity itself to set.

The BB5s are only £20 or so cheaper than the 7s and why Hase don't fit the 7s is a mystery to me. As I had to buy new 7s, at around £110 for the pair IIRC I'm unimpressed by Hase on this. The Kett' is beautifully engineered and then they fit rubbish brakes! Talk about spoiling the ship for a ha'porth of tar.

Mmm, about the reliability/'repairability' of cables vs hydraulics...

- I don't recall ever having a hydraulic hose break/be 'pulled' - even on my Birdy where they flex as part of the folding. They're pretty tough. I don't ride off road much to be fair and don't remember ever snagging a normal cable either. Has anyone had this actually happen? I wonder if it might even be better to have a plastic hose snag and break, rather than a metal cable snag and apply large forces to other bits of the bike e.g. brake arms, possibly damaging them, before breaking itself or pulling out of the clamp...

- You can arrange hydraulics to follow close to the frame so snagging is less likely anyway using e.g. right angle adaptors so they come out at 90 degrees to the brake levers. Also you can use more/tighter bends on the run without affecting performance.

- Even if one brake hose gets broken, you can generally get home or to a bike shop/whatever with your one remaining brake, with care... it's not necessarily a 'stops you moving' disaster.

- And how many people carry the tools to repair a snapped mechanical cable, anyway? You either need a spare cable, or may have to shorten some outer casing (needing serious wire cutters).

- Cables are more likely to fail gradually through corrosion, tight bends or kinking - or by freezing up, rusting solid etc. Hydraulics (Magura rim brakes at least) last for years even with minimum maintenance. Must admit I have little experience with 'open' systems or those using DOT fluid etc rather than mineral oil.

- The mineral oil ones are easy enough to fill and bleed once you know how. Fluid is non-corrosive and non-toxic (AFAIK!).

OTOH there is the initial expense, and as Zoxed says it may be hard to justify if your machines comes fitted with something else.

Well bad news always travels further than good news. But...

I've spoken to people who have snagged hoses, had unexplained leaks, binding pads and contaminated pads on their hydraulic brakes. Speaking to brake mechanical disc and traditional rim brake owners they report few problems.

One owner upgraded his trike from SA drums to hydraulic discs and had so many problems he reverted to the drums even though he'd sold the original drum braked wheels and so had to buy replacements wheels.

I'm sure there are many happy hydraulic owners and I'm sure most of them have not yet had problems nor will have them in the future, but there have been enough reports for me to choose the Avid BB7s over any hydraulic system. Money was not an issue, all I wanted was reliable brakes and I feel got them.

"I thought of that while riding my bike." --Albert Einstein, on the Theory of Relativity

"I thought of that while riding my trike." --Geoff on the possibility of 'wasting' the rest of his life triking.

2007QNT
2008 Kettwiesel AL27
1951 Engine

Fair enough. Must admit my hydraulics experience has mostly been with Magura rim brakes, not the various disk systems (but I'll be trying some on the Villiers, see next issue). Seems the disks may be rather more variable...

Hi Geoff,

Thanks for the detailed reply: I had a quick Google and have seen the BB7s for only Eur50 for just the calipers (I am in Germany), so I think when the BB5s start to give me problems, or the pads wear out again, I will replace them with some BB7s.

Simon

I'm struggling to think how you're riding a trike in order to snag a brake cable. I've been riding these things for 12 years and have never experienced that one...
I've been using hydraulic brakes for most of that time after a bad experience of frozen brake cables.
And brake pads lasting a few hundred miles?! I've only bought replacemetn pads a couple of times ever - what are you doing, riding with the brakes on all the time???
Rob

You do need to take care in your choice of hydraulics when fitting them to a Kett - the mudguard stays can foul the mounting of some models (eg Shimano). I'd stick with the Maguras that Hase spec with their higher end trikes. But BB7s are much better than BB5s - I speak from experience.

Here the snow is so deep that it's above seat height. Not really ridable unless you can find some massive 20" tyres for flotation on the rear and fit a ski to the front.

I do recall a picture of a Greenspeed snowmobile trike - skis on front and a caterpillar tread on the rear.

I think you are missing the point RobH.

BB5s are the cheap end of the market and are stunningly poor, they intermittently drag, not so much as to really slow you but enough to mean you feel it, they are pigs to adjust initially and a nightmare to keep in adjustment, think Supermarket BSO bakes and you are in the right ball park. I can't tell you why one pair of pads went so soon when the others didn't, as the Kett' brake steers I can assure you they were both used equally. The 1200 mile pair are still good, they came off when I swapped to BB7s so as to have 7s on both sides.

While you have had no problem in years of hydraulic use, if you read my post I mentioned that many people have no problems, some people do. I lift my Kett' through a doorway at the start and end of every days ride and hydraulic hoses are prone to being caught. I know this as I've seen them pulled out with fluid dripping on the ground. Some also leak, the guy who swapped back to SA Drums had persistent weeping at both ends of the system, a fault his 'expert' LBS couldn't fully solve for more than a few weeks at a time, hence the change back. Neither of these outcomes would suit my wife as the trike stands in a carpeted area!

I would say that for most riders Avid BB7s are more than adequate, in fact they are ideal with simple fittings for actuation not that much different from the sort of thing bikes have used for many decades and no 'extra technology' needed for them to work. They easily stop the Kettwiesel at the limit of the rear tyres' adhesion and would stop my QNT where greater force can be usefully used too.

"I thought of that while riding my bike." --Albert Einstein, on the Theory of Relativity

"I thought of that while riding my trike." --Geoff on the possibility of 'wasting' the rest of his life triking.

2007QNT
2008 Kettwiesel AL27
1951 Engine



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2010 10:16PM by Geoff.

I've SA drums on my QNT and they're so good and ridiculously easy to maintain and aesthetically pleasing to boot that I wonder why anyone would choose disks. I've had my cables freeze up on me a couple of times in the past and wondered about hydraulic disks but it happens so infrequently that I reckon good maintenance with a good lube might do just as well.

I've had the BB5s and they're horrible - I second Geoff's observations. I swapped them for vastly superior BB7s on my Grasshopper.

Only good things to say about Magura hydraulic rim brakes too.

Oddball

'I'm drinking wine and eating cheese, and catching some rays, you know.'

No, I'm right there following you Geoff and interested as I just picked up my first trike with BB5s last week and they don't seem too bad yet. Two grub screws to release the assembly, centre it and tighten again. Seems simple enough... Where exactly do things go wrong so I can be ready?
Tho my next purchase is coming with BB7s after reading repeated recommendations for them.
The question on cable snagging was because I've NEVER experienced cables getting snagged as you described, either brake or gear regardless of cable or hydraulic. Sure, mirrors getting trashed banging them on door edges, etc.

Disc brske brake pad wear is an inexplicable mystery as far as I can tell - on my Trice XXl (BB7s) my pads have lasted:

SET 1 - 4,774 miles (but really anly 4,200 miles)
SET 2 - 3,661 miles
SET 3 - 4,551 miles
SET 4 - 7,412 miles

I have no explaination at all for why the 4th set lasted so much longer thab the other sets. I also have two trikes with hydraulic disc brakes where the brake pads last for at least 8,000 miles - which is why I left on a long tour with the first set of brake pads at about 4,100 miles - this was in 2005, and I could not find a cycle shop stocking the right pads - so now on tour, I carry spare sets of pads, as covering 500 miles with a trailer of camping gear and almost no brakes is no fun.

I also replaced both brake cables (inneer and outer) after 7,000 miles - as the cable had rusted at the lower point and stuck to the outer - just used ordinary replacements, but filled the outer with oil before assembly, and (so far) have had no further problems.

As for hydralics leaking/snagging, I have had no problems on my trikes - even on my Trice Micro (ground clearance .... - well, there is some) - I have used the Micro off-road, and had a few incidents - including snapping a steering connector rod on a protruding stump - the hydraulic pipe for the right brake was in the 'line of fire' but was not harmed. The only problem I have had with leaks is with the Magura hydraulic rim brakes on my Peer Gynt - when I 'drop' it (so far always when trying a very low speed manouver) the first bit that contacts the ground is the connector bit for the hydralic hose at the brake leaver , which allways knocks it losse and allows fluid to run out - fortunaterly I have never dropped it on both sides on the same day, and on the Peer Gynt, it is possible to brake hard on just one wheel at speed (as long as you are not steering at the same time when it is the front wheel)

John Turvey

I agree with oddball the SA drums will stand my QNT on its nose if need be, the chainring guard has the marks to prove it! The only reason for discs on it would be for fully loaded mountain touring where heat dissipation is an issue. In any other situation I don't see the need for 'better' brakes on the QNT.

Rob
The BB5s will go out of adjustment with wear.
Then because the only way to move the static pad is to realign the calliper. You will find the problems start, in theory you can keep the static pad in line only by re-shimming the mount, in practice you will find that you can adjust the pad by slackening and re-tightening the mounting bolts but this will mean the angle is changes each time you adjust it.
Once the pads get a bit of debris around them the moving pad will refuse to come right off causing that annoying slight scraping sound and slight drag.
The static pad floats on a point support and that will stick at an angle after a damp ride or two. (This was part of the premature wear I experienced.)

The BB7s have a much larger pad and work at far lighter finger pressure and they don't clog so easily. The ability to adjust both pads by hand means the whole thing can be kept in adjustment easily. They are simply a better solution than the 5s.

As to snagging hoses, you only need to do it once! If your set up minimises the chances of snagging and you never ride near any potential snagging points you'll be fine, but IF you do manage to do it you face a ride home with one brake. No problem on my QNT with no brake steer and plenty of reserve power but an issue with my Kettwiesel where locking the single braked wheel and brake steer would make it a bit too 'interesting' for me.

Leaks are something that shouldn't happen, but somehow they do. I've seen it said that this is the cycling equivalent of the introduction of discs brakes to Motorcycles which happened in the 1970s???, initially there were lots of problems as mechanics didn't understand them, once everyone got up to speed the reliability improved to that of the car brake. Maybe this will happen on bikes but the need to make everything as light as possible can't be helping!

"I thought of that while riding my bike." --Albert Einstein, on the Theory of Relativity

"I thought of that while riding my trike." --Geoff on the possibility of 'wasting' the rest of his life triking.

2007QNT
2008 Kettwiesel AL27
1951 Engine



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2010 12:14PM by Geoff.

Geoff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with oddball the SA drums will stand my
> QNT on its nose if need be, the chainring guard
> has the marks to prove it! The only reason for
> discs on it would be for fully loaded mountain
> touring where heat dissipation is an issue.

I liked SA drums when I first had them on my '96 Trice but they overheat on long descents. That is my preferred terrain so yeah, drums fine on the flat, but discs for hilly country touring... Can see you finding drums fine sticking to the lowlands.

> Once the pads get a bit of debris around them the
> moving pad will refuse to come right off causing
> that annoying slight scraping sound and slight
> drag.
> The static pad floats on a point support and that
> will stick at an angle after a damp ride or two.
> (This was part of the premature wear I
> experienced.)

Now I'm so looking forward to that!


> Leaks are something that shouldn't happen, but
> somehow they do.

New one on me - used Sachs, Hope, Hayes, Magura and Gator and haven't had such problems. Maybe just lucky steering away from light weight versions? Only hydraulic leaks I've seen have been when someone has put a racebike down on a velodrome.

My experience:

SA drums on an ICE T: good but remember to clean out shoe dust every few hundred miles. Be wary of over-heating and fade on long descents, particularly with luggage. It has been suggested that you could warp the drums by holding the brakes on after a long descent, maybe whilst giving way at a junction.

Avid BB7s on a Speed: more powerful but less feel and more prone to locking a wheel

I would not accept BB5s on a "quality" recumbent.

Geoff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The BB5s will go out of adjustment with wear.

Hmmm... Just been out for a quick 10. I'd carefully aligned bb5s and adjusted cable tension for pad clearance. Seemed fine in the workshop but just felt spongy on the road... No drag but no real bite either. Humph.
Presumably this is a taste of the problems to come...

Can someone qualify long descents and heat dissipation and heavily loaded. It's all a bit vague really. I ride in the Peak District, I weigh 80 kilos plus typically a few kilos of gear and a fully equipped QNT. I've never had a problem with fade.

ICE develop their trikes in Cornwall and seem very bullish about the performance of an SA drum. Surely if it's not going to stop you down a descent in Cornwall they'd know.

I'm suspicious of the suggestion of warping SA drums - has anyone done this? if so what were the conditions? Was it a tandem trike, or a fully loaded trike descending an Alpine pass for example. Were the brakes pumped? Were the pads contaminated/glazed/worn, was the hub brake shell part of a bad batch? I feel there is a general lack of scientific rigour in reporting equipment strengths and weaknesses in the cycling community. There are often 2 camps: it works for me so it's great; it doesn't work for me so it's crap. Each can usually find someone else to agree with them.

I could stick a thermistor on a drum, log the temperature during a hilly ride then consult a metallurgist and a mechanical engineer..... If only I had the time or someone would pay me to do it!

Oddball

'I'm drinking wine and eating cheese, and catching some rays, you know.'

oddball Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can someone qualify long descents and heat
> dissipation and heavily loaded. It's all a bit
> vague really. I ride in the Peak District, I
> weigh 80 kilos plus typically a few kilos of gear
> and a fully equipped QNT. I've never had a
> problem with fade.

You'll know it if you encounter it. Initially the brake levers seem to go a little soft and need more pull. Then that pull doesn't really seem to be taking any speed off and the pulse rate starts to get a little higher. Haven't personally pushed it beyond that stage.

Specific places where I've found drum brake fade to be a problem (not on every occasion obviously, can't remember off hand whether they were particularly hot days, etc) are:

1) Descent from Exmoor, the Weddon Cross to Bishops Lydeard B3224, towards the Elworthy crossroads with B3188. The junction is definitely a give-way with poor sightlines coming off the moor and 20% drop down to the junction...

2) The single-track road descent down Dearleap from Priddy to Wookey Hole. It is a nice fast single lane descent, maybe 20% in places but any cars coming the other way take up most of the road so it isn't safe to let rip. Some cruel so-and-so put a NCN route up there last I saw...

From these I guess I'm listing roads with poor sightlines/restricted width, steep drops where a sharp and sudden stop may be necessary so it is important not to build up too much speed. Curiously "notorious" hills like Porlock don't seem to present significant brake fade problems... but then I guess I've mainly been riding discs when I've been out that way.

Does that help any?

RobH Wrote:

>
> You'll know it if you encounter it. Initially the
> brake levers seem to go a little soft and need
> more pull. Then that pull doesn't really seem to
> be taking any speed off and the pulse rate starts
> to get a little higher. Haven't personally pushed
> it beyond that stage.
>
> Specific places where I've found drum brake fade
> to be a problem (not on every occasion obviously,
> can't remember off hand whether they were
> particularly hot days, etc) are:
>
> 1) Descent from Exmoor, the Weddon Cross to
> Bishops Lydeard B3224, towards the Elworthy
> crossroads with B3188. The junction is definitely
> a give-way with poor sightlines coming off the
> moor and 20% drop down to the junction...
>
> 2) The single-track road descent down Dearleap
> from Priddy to Wookey Hole. It is a nice fast
> single lane descent, maybe 20% in places but any
> cars coming the other way take up most of the road
> so it isn't safe to let rip. Some cruel so-and-so
> put a NCN route up there last I saw...
>
> From these I guess I'm listing roads with poor
> sightlines/restricted width, steep drops where a
> sharp and sudden stop may be necessary so it is
> important not to build up too much speed.
> Curiously "notorious" hills like Porlock don't
> seem to present significant brake fade problems...
> but then I guess I've mainly been riding discs
> when I've been out that way.
>
> Does that help any?

Yes it does Rob, thanks.

There's a steep descent to the Goyt Valley on my regular circuit where I descend in mid 40s and then I normally take off some speed as I chicken out. I've pushed 50 just once. Maybe I should be more 'courageous' in the interest of research.

Oddball

'I'm drinking wine and eating cheese, and catching some rays, you know.'

oddball Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There's a steep descent to the Goyt Valley on my
> regular circuit where I descend in mid 40s and
> then I normally take off some speed as I chicken
> out. I've pushed 50 just once. Maybe I should be
> more 'courageous' in the interest of research.

My '96 (pre-ICE) Trice used to get terrible shimmey above 40mph - maybe another factor causing me to unconciously drag the brakes warming them up and encouraging fade?

Tip for adjusting your Avid BB brakes (5 or 7) on your Kettwiesel - adjust them whilst sitting (or kneeling) on the seat Both of ours (steel and aluminium) seem to have bit of flex when being sat on, and close but clear adjustment on an unladen trike can result in some pad rubbing when laden. I suspect this is related to the occasion disk "ring" on hard cornering. I should add that neither of us are particularly heavy. It could of course be that there's something terribly wrong with our Ketts!