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The current issue is Issue 16. The next issue is out early March 2005.
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VV discussion
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Author: cookie (---.l6.c3.dsl.pol.co.uk)
Date: 05-01-2005 20:55
I've been thinking about Velomobiles a lot more recently and they keep coming back to me as something that makes so much sense. When you see images of the Versatile and Aerorider, they do look amazing -mysteriously car like which maybe the key. Personally the mango and quest seem the biz on a number of points and I'm considering using some holiday to go to Holland and test ride a bunch.
I think a true understanding of UK topography needs to be incorporated into the design and reading Frederik Van De Walles' thesis "the velomobile as a vehicle for more sustainable transportation", bears this out when measuring velomobile speeds on 5% inclines versus regular bikes.
Having checked the velomobiel.nl website for UK ownership information, UK ownership seems to be very low and locations seem unclear (to get an idea on topography). In contrast the IHPVA forum is red hot at the moment with chat about the topic.
I think it would be very interesting to find out more about UK usage potential which could then drive interest, development investment and then manufacturing and marketing. Anyone else interested/tried one/want to find out too??
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Author: Andhar Wheel (---.ceecom.co.uk)
Date: 06-01-2005 12:56
Cookie,
You have raised interesting points and issues which I have been thinking about.
The only guy I know who has one lives 30 miles north of Aberdeen. I have not been up to see him and find out if he uses it much. Perhaps some of the folk on here might have met him. His name is Bob Thackaray and he has taken his Leitra to several rallys etc.
I think they will be hard work in hilly areas, see the photo on the letters page of the most recent Velovision. I find my touring spec Hurricane hard work on tour with a full load and that cant be much off the weight off some of the Velomobiles.
I dont much fancy lugging 70-80 IBs of trike on a day ride with the local CTC or even negotiating the local supermarkets with a Velomobile that weighs that much. There are very few flat areas around here(Aberdeenshire). When I was running a bare Windcheetah, I often didn't take it on a very hilly ride, otherwise I couldn't literally walk afterwards.
Get one down to 30-40IBs and I would seriously think about one.
If my understanding is correct, they weigh so much as they have a subframe/chassis and have quite a lot of crash protection? Does anyone think this a necessity/desireability on a human powered bike/trike?
Andy
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Author: hpvfriend (---.bahnhof.net)
Date: 06-01-2005 15:13
Hello Cookie
I think you should test an Alleweder. There is a lot used to buy for about 700 to 1200 euros in the Netherlands and Deutschland. Also velomobiel.nl have sometimes used Alleweders for sale. I bought mine and are very happy with it. I live in southern Sweden and don't have so many hills to climb but here are some and you do get up and are greatly rewarded downhill. Don't you like the Alleweder it is easy to sell again and you wont lose so much money. The Alleweder has one big advantage to Quest and Mango, its very easy to adjust the seat for different riders. Its not so fast as the Quest or Mango but nearly as fast as the Versatile. I bought mine for getting used to Velomobiles and see for myself the pros and cons and perhaps in the future buy a Quest.
Jan-Inge HPV Sweden
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Author: cookie (---.lns2-c7.dsl.pol.co.uk)
Date: 06-01-2005 20:45
Jan, a second hand Alleweder looks like worth checking out, if not just to see at first hand the weight issues Andy rightly points out.
From reading manufactuers details, most of the latest designs are of a monocoque construction which allows for "designed in" positioning of suspension components and structure. I'm no designer but for commuting and assessing a velomobile to replace car journeys, this would seem a more logical and ultimately attractive solution than say a windcheetah with a cover (although that would be fast!).
I suppose the latest materials (and lighter weights) will come into play when manufacturers can be more sure of the sales required for investment. A very light Versatile would in my mind be an aspirational vehicle and some!
Those pictures of en masse velomobile events are strangely alluring, they just look right.
In the mean time the adjustable seated Alleweder has to be worth a look especially when fitting someone designed as a "compact power unit" like myself!!
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Author: hpvfriend (---.bahnhof.net)
Date: 07-01-2005 10:57
An Alleweder is a very good starting point for most people who wants to know more about velomobiles. Quest, Mango, Cab-bike and Versatile all started with Alleweder and share the most specialparts like steering and suspension (Ok Versatile not) with the Flevobike Alleweder. Nowadays there are some different Alleweders. The first is the old Verhees Alleweder with 26" rearwheel then come the Flevobike Alleweder with 20 rear wheel and now there is an Alligt Alleweder which is based on the old Verhees Alleder and has a 26 rear wheel. Besides all whose aluminum Alleweders Flevobike did one Carbon Alleweder. Many of these Alleweders has been sold as kits. I live not so far from the Leitra factory and has visited Carl-Georg Rasmussen but the Leitras share the same problem as the Quest. They are build to suit one rider and there are not so many used as the Alleweder. The Versatile and the Leitra has an advantage to the others they are more easy to climb in to. In All the others you has to sving down and get your feet on a certain place so you dont do a crack in the fairing. The Alleweder can take some hits but the Quest (and Mango) is fragile. The fairing is very thin where it dont have to be thick! The Versatile is very well built and looks and feels like a Mercedes with nice comfortable interior, but its heavy and expensive. Cab-bike is a nice and practical Alleweder and easier to get into with more luggage space. Waw is new and not many has been built but its like a Quest, built for speed.
Jan-Inge HPV Sweden
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Author: easy racer (---.96-84-212.ippool.ndo.com)
Date: 07-01-2005 20:45
Hi Cookie,
I love the idea of a velomobile, but I think you are right in that the relative topography needs to be taken into account.
I personally would need a very light design (1 in 4 hills being a daily task), and with all the practical accessories, for an everyday commuter, like: lots of gears, lights, weather protection, luggage space, and ventilation.
None of the current designs excel in every area, but I would like to think I might be able to make a better one, maybe, one day?
Until then, just look at these for inspiration:
http://www.fietser.be/flash/presentingWAW.htm
http://www.trisled.com.au/sorcerer.htm
http://www.go-one.biz/ukindex.shtml
The only "Folding" I have, is the Bike!
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Author: hpvfriend (---.bahnhof.net)
Date: 07-01-2005 23:01
Weight is important absolutely. But you have to try a velomobil. Not just for a short ride. You must learn to ride it. Not learn the balance. Your mind must get used to it. You must use the gears like in a car. A velomobil is heavier (here it comes again) so you must take it easy so you dont get inertia, you must spin, dont push hard, and change gear often. Take it easy uphill, you will not fall to the side then the speed gets very low. You can even stop and take a nap and then get back on the pedals in the middle of the hill. After a while (weeks!) you can spin up the hill. Then you for a change take out your lightracer and take the same trip you feel how easy it is going up that first hill but when you're done with the trip you look at your clock and the cyclecomputer and you notice you werent faster with your low ligth racer than with your velomobil! Thats what happened to me. My aluminum lowracer is now standing in my hall most of the time when I'm out with my Alleweder. It might change when the weather gets better but I'm not sure.
Jan-Inge HPV Sweden
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Author: cookie (---.lns6-c7.dsl.pol.co.uk)
Date: 08-01-2005 10:45
Lots to think about, I've got someone in Holland looking out for an Alleweder so we'll see what happens. The guys at Velomobiel have non back in part-ex and the waiting list for a new Mango or Quest is March 06!
There is one on ligfeits.net for 1499 euro but that's too much for an "experiment" - I'll keep looking.
I remember when I first rode my Speed Ross recumbent up a big hill and how the legs felt, I only just saved myself from falling over when grinding to a halt. Had a test in a Windcheetah partly because of the ability to come to a stop and have a quick sleep if required! I didn't get a Windcheetah because there are a lot of cambered lanes in Worcestershire where I live and I found the constant twisting to keep the thing on the road didn't work well with the lower back - with the independent suspension in the Alleweder, would this alleviate that problem??
The Flevobike Alleweder seems like the option to go for - do they ride differently?
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Author: easy racer (---.109-84-212.ippool.ndo.com)
Date: 09-01-2005 16:28
I would be intrigued to know how velomobiles compare with a Windcheeetah too, as I commute on one at the moment.
Any thoughts?
The only "Folding" I have, is the Bike!
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Author: hpvfriend (---.telia.com)
Date: 09-01-2005 17:14
Hello Cookie and easy racer it's fun to use my rusty old english again. Hope you understand what I write.
Here in southern Sweden its stormy so my RadioLan has gone with the wind and the electricity comes and goes so this is not the first message I have written. So this will be a bit short.
Look for secondhand (gebraucht) Alleweders in Deutschland too http://www.hpv-ev.de/shop/gebraucht/
Right now people are searching/wanting (suche) only on the list but keep looking.
The problem with sitting on a threewheeler when the road is banked(cambered?) I know I've tried a lot of tadpoles. You just sit on side of the lower back! Its a bit better with individual suspension but not perfect. In the Alleweder I also put my elbows at the armchairsides lookalikes and thats also helps a bit, and a very soft seat. The Alleweder is going straight even then the surface is not even. It's very easy to navigate and I often hold the steering with one hand sometimes even with my legs!
I havent tried a windcheetah just sat in once (but as earlier mentioned I tried a lot of other Tadpoles). But the steeringpin should be well known to you. Most people ask DO you STEER with THAT? isnt it too narrow? Its heavier of course but then you roll along you will be surprised how easy it gets along and after a hill you just keeps rolling. You feel very secure like in a car for good and bad! When you shifted from an upright to an recumbent for the first time you need to shift muscles too and get used to climb hills and accelerate etc, that difference will you probably recognise when you shift to a velomobile and try to remember the time it took and dont give in. For me it took two weeks of daily riding to get used to the Alleweder. I send this for the eletricity began blinking now. I'll get back here....
Jan-Inge HPV Sweden
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Author: Yo Rollenbeck / Hasebikes.com (---.dip.t-dialin.net)
Date: 10-01-2005 14:48
I have just seen the prototype of the www.nimbuskayaks.com people built on a Kettwiesel ( from us, Hasebikes that is).
Would anyone dare to tell me if it would be worth importing it and at what price, i wonder how big the velomobil market is anyway....
Yo Rollenbeck
Hasebikes.com makers of Kettwiesel, Lepus, Pino and other strange machines
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Author: cookie (---.l5.c3.dsl.pol.co.uk)
Date: 10-01-2005 17:04
Jan - hope the electric is back on ok?
Thanks for the various bits of information on looking for an Alleweder and getting used to it - if I do end up getting one, I'm sure it will be like starting out again!
Seeing Yo's message to nimbus kayaks got me thinking about making more use of my 5m Canoe - I could always install a clear nose and use it as a velomobile fariing when not on the water.
The way things are going with global warming, I think I should keep my canoe closer to the house rather than the boat shed!!
There is a lot on www.ihpva.org regards velomobile construction at the moment and it looks like there is a close relationship to velomobiles and kayaks for the do it yourself type person.
Do you all think self made's are a bit wacko or is it just me?
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Author: Mary Arneson (---.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net)
Date: 10-01-2005 22:53
I've been watching the responses to the Nimbus kayak prototype fairing for the Kettwiesel over the past few months, and I talked to Steve about it during SPEZI in 2004. There seems to be some interest in the idea. With more Kettwiesels being sold in North America, I think that people here would welcome the possibility of extending the triking season with a fairing.
Mary
*Osell Long-wheel-base recumbent
*Cab-Bike velomobile
*RANS Screamer tandem
*Brompton/Junik folding recumbent
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Author: hpvfriend (---.bahnhof.net)
Date: 11-01-2005 07:46
Hello Cookie I'm back again. It was chaos in old Sweden for a couple of days then the storm hit us. Now my telephone, electricity and Internet is back. Thanks for your concern.
Here's a canoetrike for you http://www.autocanoe.com/
About the fairing for the Kettwiesel I think if I had a Kettwiesel I dont want it covered with a fairing. A velomobil should have individual suspension and be build up from zero not from an existing trike even if its as good as a Kettwiesel.
Self made is often seen as wacko but if you are riding a recumbent and especially a velomobil you are used to be seen as a wacko all the time! Even my neighbours who see me every day is laughing everytime they see me. Instead of saying hello we just laugh at each other. But a good laugh keeps the doctor away....
Cheers from
Jan-Inge HPV Sweden
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Author: Arch (---.york.ac.uk)
Date: 11-01-2005 09:12
That canoe trike is very pretty! And here in York at the moment, would be easy to launch from any of the streets leading to the river...
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Author: bentrider (---.spangdahlem.af.mil)
Date: 11-01-2005 12:26
My area is much more than a little bit hilly and I still enjoy my Cab-Bike quite a bit. It's not as fast in some areas as a good two wheeler but it's MUCH faster on the flats and downhills. It has low enough gearing to get up everything else. Riding in light pants and a T-Shirt when it's 25 degrees Farenheit make it all worthwhile for me.
Bryan J. Ball
Managing Editor/Evil Overlord
www.bentrideronline.com
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Author: hpvfriend (---.bahnhof.net)
Date: 11-01-2005 15:03
I am very happy Bryan that you purchased an velomobil. Your e-zine got lot of influence on many people. Could you take the for many big step and buy an velomobil and seem to like it many more can think to take the step. Youre doing a great job! Keep up the good work. I am one of your admirers.
Best wishes
Jan-Inge HPV Sweden
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Author: Yo Rollenbeck / Hasebikes.com (---.dip.t-dialin.net)
Date: 11-01-2005 15:22
Did anyone look at the kettwiesel velomobile protoype at www.nimbuskayks.com we ould like to know how much interest there is for such a thing before we can think about importing it.
Anyone can give me an indication how many could be sold?
yo rollenbeck ( just slightly confused ..... )cookie wrote:
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Author: hpvfriend (---.bahnhof.net)
Date: 11-01-2005 15:57
I think the fairing looks nice. And the Kettwiesel is nice. And the interest for velomobiles is warming up. So perhaps some could be sold. My guess is as good as yours. How many Kettwiesels are sold? And that percent of the Kettwieselowners could think of this fairing? Perhaps 10 %. A guess is a guess
Jan-Inge HPV Sweden
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Author: bentrider (---.spangdahlem.af.mil)
Date: 12-01-2005 12:50
Thanks Jan... That's sort of what I'm hoping. I would love to see more velos on the road, especially in North America.
Bryan J. Ball
Managing Editor/Evil Overlord
www.bentrideronline.com
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Author: wriggy (194.119.143.---)
Date: 12-01-2005 16:36
The velomobile project looks very interesting and the designers certainly sound like they know what they are talking about in the construction of it. As to who would buy it, it's quite hard to guage at this stage there are probably a lot of questions that would need to be answered
How much will it cost?
Is it a velomobile or a fairing to retro fit to a Kettwiesel?
How much does it weigh?
How well does it corner?
Does it have the same handling quirks as a Kettwiesel (front wheel skipping, lack of traction to drive wheel)?
When will it be available?
How many gears will it have?
I think you will need to pursuade people from an early stage that the delta arrangement is a viable and competitive option as it would seem that most trike sales (disregarding the Sun EZ3) and almost all velomobiles are tadpoles. Perhaps try to get some test ride comments from people in the velomobile community with experience in the current models. I think positive comments from them would do a lot for interest in the machine.
Having said all that, I will definitely follow the progress with great interest as it does look like it's progressing into quality product.
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Author: cookie (---.l1.c3.dsl.pol.co.uk)
Date: 12-01-2005 20:04
Two types of potential customers me thinks:
Trike with "top" - existing cyclist
Full Velomobile - existing cyclist AND car driver
There is definately a place for both but at what level is difficult to ascertain (for the UK).
I can see a futuristic looking velomobile with 250w electric assist having aspirational qualities in the UK - if seen as having real value as a real alternative, I don't think price is a massive issue, there are plenty of expensive motorised toys (motorbikes and sportscars) in the UK - it's a question of making a velomobile a "must have" transport solution.
I think a small percentage of early adopter car drivers may convert if incentives are good enough (perceived value, "coolness" and infrastructure etc).
A trike with a top may have potential with existing and potential trike owners if the top is made available as an "easy to retrofit" accessory or as a point of purchase optional extra. To non cyclists, being sold as a package would work better.
I suppose it all depends on how courageous velomobile manufacturers want to be given all the risks involved!!
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Author: Arch (---.york.ac.uk)
Date: 13-01-2005 09:04
I'm afraid I'm more pessimistic about the appeal of velomobiles to car drivers in this country (assuming we mean car drivers who are not already keen cyclists), maybe even if it had electric assist. Talking to the general public on Bike Try Out Roadshows over the last four years, I've often encountered attitudes like "I don't want to look daft", or "How much? I can get a car for that." If such a thing can be made 'cool', it might help with the former, but as cookie mentions, expensive motorised toys tend to have a strong car theme. Also, the ghost of the Sinclair C5 still hangs over us...
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Author: Yo Rollenbeck / Hasebikes.com (---.dip.t-dialin.net)
Date: 13-01-2005 10:05
Wriggy
The Kettwiesel / velomobile project is still in it´s infancyc so is don´t know what it will cost etc.
i haven´t even ridden it.
But if it will be adaptable to other deltas as well like the Sun even better. Because with more sales the price might come down etc. more people know about it.
a retrofit might be good as it lowers the initial cost and you you can always upgrade later.
As to expensive:
i´m very astonished how many Kettwiesels in Titanium we have sold already at a quite high price.
Many people complain but then they buy it anyway....
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Author: Legs Larry (194.130.196.---)
Date: 14-01-2005 14:08
Mr. Harrington wrote:
"The only guy I know who has one lives 30 miles north of Aberdeen. I have not been up to see him and find out if he uses it much. Perhaps some of the folk on here might have met him. His name is Bob Thackaray and he has taken his Leitra to several rallys etc"
Ian Chattington has, or at least had, an Alleweder in the Northant/Milton Keynes area, while that electric vehicle bloke whose name escapes me but isn't Cedric Lynch has an electrically-assisted one in the same neighbourhood (unless the one mutated into the other).
Dave Larrington, London Town Devine
World Domination?
Just find a world that's into that kind of thing, then chain to the floor and walk up and down on it in high heels.
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